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The Eye
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PostSubject: Basic rules discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:54 am

I don't really have time to work on my online game server ATM, but I'll try post issues as they come up.
1-Does a player lose the game instantly or as the stack empties?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:41 am

Most causes of death are state based effects, so I think it is instantly...
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:28 am

If two static effects cause a clash, which one takes precedence?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:24 am

William is correct, it is a state based effect. i.e. at any time if a players life is less than or equal to zero that player loses the game. State based effects are checked whenever a player gains priority and so cannot be responded to. However often an ability on the stack resolving is the cause of a statebased effect acting, and so this may be responded to instead, however for all intensive purposes there is effectively no time between an ability that would cause a player to lose the game resolving, and that player losing the game, as an example.

In the case of a single card's effect conflicting with a rules effect, the card's effect takes precedence as in the example of fortune thief and the effect mentioned above that causes players to lose the game. Fortune thief takes precedence and the player does not lose the game.

In the case of two or more cards in play generating conflicting static effects, The most recent effect takes precedence, i.e. if two players both enchant a permanent with a control spell such as confiscate, the latter to play the spell gains precedence and thus control of the permanent.

Hope this clears things up a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:45 pm

In programming word, this means static effects should be checked upon priority, not stack change, and that new static effects are added to the end of a list, thus overriding previous effects when iterating. Sound good?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:36 am

i'd say that about sums it up yes Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:03 am

okay, what about when two triggered abilities of the same controller trigger, does the controller choose the order?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:00 am

The controller chooses which takes priority.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:39 am

Thought so.

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:32 am

im not sure which takes prority if two abilities trigger at the same time but its probably either dependant on whose turn it is and what they want , OR which permanent that generated the abilities came into play most recently.

any heads up let me know.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:13 pm

First player to get priority - i.e. clockwise. The player who's action triggered the abilities gets priority first, followed by the player to his left and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:37 am

If an ability triggers, and in the meantime the controller of the source changes, does the controller of the triggered ability change accordingly?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:59 pm

When the ability resolves, it uses its controller at the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:48 am

Sorry if I'm posting really obvious things, but it's important I get them right straight-off.
Does first-strike and regular damage trigger simultaneously?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:57 am

Yes, they are just resolved differently...even I knew that.

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:34 pm

Good, good, just testing you.
Juan comes up to the Mexican border on his bicycle. He's got two large bags over his shoulders. The guard stops him and says, "What's in the bags?"

"Sand," answered Juan.

The guard says, "We'll just see about that. Get off the bike." The guard detains Juan overnight and has the sand analyzed, only to discover that there is nothing but pure sand in the bags. He releases Juan and lets him cross the border.

A week later, the same thing happens. The guard asks, "What's in the bags?"

"Sand," says Juan.

The guard does his thorough examination and discovers that the bags contain nothing but sand. He gives the sand back to Juan, and Juan crosses the border on his bicycle.

This sequence of events is repeated every day for three years. Finally, Juan doesn't show up one day and the guard meets him in a Cantina in Mexico.

"Hey, Buddy," says the guard, "I know you are smuggling something. It's driving me crazy. It's all I think about...Just between you and me, what are you smuggling?"

Juan sips his beer and says, "Bicycles."

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:02 pm

Lol that was good.

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:34 am

So, what's the order of playing a spell? Pick target/pay costs/Put on stack?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:29 am

Pay costs. People can't respond yet.

Goes on stack. People can respond to this by countering it etc.

It resolves. As the spell resolves, you pick targets. People can respond by killing off the targets, but by now it's too late to counter the spell, you can only make it fizzle.

That's how I think it goes...
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:32 am

The target-picking bit sounds dodgy. Otherwise, if I'm playing two spells at the same time, and an opponent plays a counterspell, how would I know whether to waste my spell on it or not?

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:59 am

This post is dedicated to clearing up the spell playing process.
Mm i always figured it this way, although it may be slightly off in parts, this is how i was taught the process of a spell resolving.
Targets are selected at the time the spell is played and checked at resolve time for validity. After the spell is played initially, targets cannot be changed without an external source such as shunt.

Paying the mana cost comes first. Then additional costs are paid
Targets for the spell are selcted and the spell goes on the stack

Players clockwise beginning on the left of the spell's controller then each get the chance to respond, this is known as gaining priority
When all cascading spells/abilities have been resolved, and all players choose to forfeit their right of response, The spell's targets are rechecked for validity. If all of the spell's targets are still valid (ie, in the correct game zone (usually play), able to be targeted, etc, etc, etc...) then the spell will resolve and its card text will take effect. Resolving permanent come into play, instants and sorceries resolve into the graveyard unless otherwise stated.

If ANY of the spell's targets become invalid then the entire spell becomes countered.
Logically since targets are only checked at the time the spell is played and the time when it resolves, I would conclude also that if a spell's target(s) become invalid and then valid again in the period between these two times, the spell will remain uncountered and resolve. I am unsure about this next part but i think that the exception to this rule is where permanents that leave and return to play (or the game zone in question) do not count as the same permanent and the spell becomes countered.

Also Max, two spells cannot be played simultaneously due to the Stack nature of the spell/ability playing process. Either one spell/ability comes first and the second in response (this is only the case with instants, interupts or permanents with flash); or one spell comes first and the second is played after the first is resolved.
Obviously i would recommend the 2nd scenario as it puts you more in a position of control, and is the way that i usually assume two spells/abilities are played in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:05 am

pro wrote:

Targets are selected at the time the spell is played and checked at resolve time for validity. After the spell is played initially, targets cannot be changed without an external source such as shunt.

Cheers, this is all I wanted confirmed. That also makes sense with cards such as Spellwild Ouphe.

pro wrote:

Also Max, two spells cannot be played simultaneously due to the Stack nature of the spell/ability playing process. Either one spell/ability comes first and the second in response (this is only the case with instants, interupts or permanents with flash); or one spell comes first and the second is played after the first is resolved.
Obviously i would recommend the 2nd scenario as it puts you more in a position of control, and is the way that i usually assume two spells/abilities are played in the game.
No, I meant if, say, a Reality Strobe and an Arc Blade went off, or someone decided to play two shocks consecutively, the counterspell would have ambiguity if targets were selected during resolving, and it may or may not be worth countering depending on what the actual target is, if you follow me.

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:07 pm

that is true, although since that is not the case you shouldnt have to worry about it.
By saying consecutively i will assume you mean the 2 shock going on the stack in response to the first 1.
If two shocks are played consecutively, both targets must be named before the spells go on the stack. You will know their targets and can decide which if any or both you may wish to counter on gaining priority.

The other scenario is that one is played, the target is selected, then you get the chhoice to counter it based on that information. When that 1 is either resolved or countered the sencond one is played.
Whether you have another counterspell or not i dont know or care, but obviously this is the worse of the two scenarios for the person who wants to counterspell them as if you counter their first shock they can select the same target and your guy will get shocked anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:01 am

Wow, you're good at extending a three-word conclusion into a big paragraph. If only I was that good at english... Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Basic rules discussion   Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:24 am

why thank you Max.
A compliment coming from you? I guess i should treasure it haha

anyway on the topic; anything i can clarify for ya?
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