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 Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!

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What do you find more scary?
Orim's Chant
25%
 25% [ 1 ]
Silence
50%
 50% [ 2 ]
Cranial Extraction
25%
 25% [ 1 ]
Hide/Seek
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 4
 

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Chris
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PostSubject: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:32 am

Are you scared yet?


Last edited by Chris on Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: 'Exhaustion'   Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:38 am

Not to mention cards like 'exhaustion' that are poentially even more powerful.
i.e. can keep all you lands and creatures tapped out for an entire turn. This can be even more devastating as afro found out several weeks ago....
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:29 am

Cranial Extraction isn't too bad, there are plenty worse things of similar effect. It's out by turn four, which is close to midgame, and doesn't target stuff in play. The only deck of mine it would really hit hard is CITR.

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PostSubject: Its all in the Mind!   Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:38 am

My point is that spells like 'Rebuff the wicked' and 'Mana tithe' potentially have a more significant effect early game. The perceived effect of Silence though is worse than the actual effect as this only lasts a single turn. With cranial extraction or hide/seek the consequences are more enduring, and your opponent knows exactly what is in your library.

The fact is that both these spells (RTW & MAT) result in mana waste and the waste of a spell. At least with Silence you still have mana to play spells during opponents turn, and you still have your cards in hand for your next turn. With the two spells I mentioned, you dont because you are probably tapped out. And you can still attack. Effectively 'Silence' is just another counterspell. It doesn't even have split second!

Pact of Negation is another story.
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:21 pm

Silence's only real advantage over Orim's Chant is that it's in Standard at the moment; the horrible thing about them, Chris, is that they act as a hard counter on turn one, and do not lose efficiency over any later turns. Rebuff the Wicked is near useless early game, as you have little to be targeted, and Mana Tithe is only really good in the first one or two turns, in which the odd card can still do something about them, but becomes totally useless mid-to-late game.

Cranial Extraction type cards force you to guess, which is why I think Lobotomy is slightly better (this also negates your point about 'seeing the deck' - they have to know your deck to take out the key components.) Hide/Seek is probably a good one as well, if only because it leaves the option of Hiding an artifact or enchantment.

In fact, if any card should be included in this poll that isn't, I think it should be WOG-type spells.
EDIT->Make that Obliterate. It can't be countered, blows up all non-enchantment permanents (half of which are likely to be Auras anyway), and is in red, which is a popular mana-accelerating color.

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PostSubject: its mainly in your head!   Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:25 pm

Not really a 'hard counter' as you put it, and definitely not as bad as Fog type spells because
1) you still have mana for your opponents turn (since you cant spend it on your turn)
2) you still have any spells to play next turn (not wasted) cf. since no spells are discarded.
3) not split second, it can actually be countered if you have a deft enough deck.

Additionally 'Silence' isn't as effective as commons such as Holy Day which have a greater potential impact. In fact 'Silence' is more similar but not as bad as 'Remand' which leaves your mana tapped and for one more mana allows the 'Player' to draw a card as well!

Silence is probably more effective later in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:36 am

Not playing spells is the worst thing that can happen early game. Although I admit it's not that effective turn one, it for all intents and purposes deals infinite damage to William ( Laughing ), and in the following turns trades off one mana for a whole turn of advantage. Decks that counter Silence are probably control decks, in which case you are paying one mana to draw out one of their counterspells, which is still very effective during your turn, as it turns a solid counterspell into a Force Spike.

Anyone else care to join in this conversation? I'll make it easy:

Silence
White Mana
Instant
Opponents can't play spells this turn.

Orim's Chant
White Mana
Instant
Kicker White Mana
Target player can't play spells this turn.
If Orim's Chant was kicked, creatures can't attack this turn.

Cranial Extraction
3 Black Mana
Sorcery - Arcane
Name a nonland card. Search target player's library, hand and graveyard for all cards of the chosen name and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles their library.

Hide
White Mana Red Mana
Put target artifact or enchantment on the bottom of its owner's library.
//
Seek
White Mana Black Mana
Search target players library for a nonland card and remove it from the game. You gain life equal to its converted mana cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:38 am

i think silence is probly the worst out of the above
but craniel extraction can definatly save u the game in a tight spot
then again so can silense and the other one

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:41 am

As I said before:
Quote :
Silence is probably more effective later in the game.

'Silence' doesn't actually give you whole turn advantage because the opponent can still
1) untap 2) upkeep 3) draw a card 4) play a land 5) attack phase

Being deprived of the playing spell ability for a single turn is least significant early game because cheap spells are generally less effective and multiple spells can't be afforded at this stage anyway.

There are plenty of other spells that give the player an extra-entire full turn advantage. e.g. temporal extortion (BBBB), time sieve (UB), time warp(3UU), time stretch(8UU), walk the aeons(4UU), stitch in time (1UR), Beacon of tommorrows(6UU), Capture of Jinqzhou(3UU), Temporal manipulation(3UU),Time walk (1U), Seed time (1G),Final fortune(RR), Last chance(RR), Warriors oath(RR), Time vault(2).

As you can see not all of these spells are expensive to play and not only is the opponent deprived of playing spells for a turn, but they are deprived of all other phases as well!!! You will be aware that there are drawbacks to most but not all of these spells.....
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:51 am

All of which have an insane drawback, expensive, or in the case of Time Walk, unobtainable.

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:20 am

I disagree:
All but a couple are affordable mid game, and an extra turn at a strategic point will win you the game but not on turn one.
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:57 am

If I was playing a control deck (which happens virtually every game), I'd be worse off not being able to counter stuff or do any combat tricks than if you just took another turn. If Silence gets countered, you lost one mana for the turn, but extra-turn spells really slow you down if they get countered. This still leaves me the option of having you extra turn, which might let you play that extra land you needed, and then counter your bloated spell that you've been waiting the whole game to play. If, faced with this scenario, you had waited two extra turns to Silence, then you could have played the same spell with massively reduced risk. You have to take into the equation that every player is limited to one card a turn, and in a multiplayer, control decks aren't usually put in a position where they can spare mana/counterspells, especially when the big drops get rolling.

That being said, I agree Cranial Extraction has a marked advantage in a one-on one or against decks based around one card, such as combo decks or Seriously Expensive Decks Backed By Unmatched Resources (hint).

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:25 am

Thats really complicated, alien will have to explain it to me.
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PostSubject: putting it into perspective then.....   Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:32 am

I guess if i counter your 'bloated spell' (lets say 'confusion in the ranks') with 'counter spell' then you'd be worse off than if i 'Silenced' you and you were still able to play it on your next turn.

Whats more, you'd still be better off if I 'Remanded' it and you still had it to play next turn, but i'd get to draw a card.

On the other hand, I knew you were playing that deck and i cranial extracted every (damned) 'Confusion' from the deck making it really useless, and then you conceded (and I didn;t blame you at all!)

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:50 pm

The point is not to Silence to counter the bloated spell, but Silence to prevent it getting countered. The comparison is between extra turns and Silence, not Silence and extractor-type spells.

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:27 am

lol geez man
cant u guys just agree to disagree and be done with it
and in mass multiplaying eg 5 or more cards like silence have basically no effect but in one on one that will win u the game
that said cranial extraction is virtually useless in multiplaying situations also
extra turns are very good in multiplaying games so i think chris is right in saying extra turns mean the game

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:49 am

Ah, but the beauty (or ugliness, depending on your stance on this matter) of Silence is that it affects each opponent, so the point is once again...Relevant!

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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:43 am

yes, the same is true about fog and if i was to be attacked by Andy with Max & his marauding army of minions, i know which card I'd rather have.
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PostSubject: Re: Not so scarey cards, afterall!!!   Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:04 pm

Ah, but that's Jonathan's job, is it not?

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